10: Herbie Hancock: Breaking the Rules

The Ultimate Piano Duet

Herbie Hancock one of the great composers and piano players of the last fifty years or so. In Herbie's music, genre is secondary — no matter what he's playing, the musicianship and creativity are absolutely in the stratosphere. The musical history he and Chick share — in Miles' '60s bands, at the inception of new electric music in the '70s and beyond — means they've got a lot to talk about. 

Listen to the two legends hang and explore that history, their mutual approach to creativity, and more. 


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Chick Corea: I like this because the tape recorder is on now, and this is like we do our show. There’s no plan of this, but aside from other ways that we may want to air this chat, whatever we’re going to be talking about, one of the ways will be for the workshop guys that I’ve been- the Chick Corea Music Workshop. As a podcast to- we’ve been doing videos online and I’ve been making myself available to musicians everywhere that we can contact around the world. I call it a workshop but I kind of stay away from the idea of education because it’s nothing formal. But I do- we do answer questions and so forth.

Herbie Hancock: Workshop is a good word because it is informal. It implies a work in progress. That there is stuff going.

CC: That’s what we do. That’s how we make music. We just came from Herbie’s amazing studio here. And I was getting inspired by seeing what kind of stuff Herbie has got set up. And it’s kind of like a workshop. I asked a bunch of questions. You were showing me a bunch of stuff. I met your tech guy, Brian.

HH: Brian McCully.

CC: It’s a workshop. It’s a continual workshop. It never stops.

HH: As a matter of fact, this is not exactly what you were talking about but from the studio standpoint, everything kind of grows exponentially. I remember in the early days when there were just synthesizers before MIDI. There was a limited number of keyboards you could get. Then there were more keyboards, more manufacturers. Then MIDI came in and it gave you more capabilities of hooking things up. ’Cause we only got two hands. But that made it possible for us to just have- control one keyboard and it could control a bunch of other ones without running around the studio. Then-

CC: Then soft synths came.

HH: Then soft synths came. And that was like opening the floodgates.

CC: I know! Yeah.

HH: New companies that were not keyboard manufacturers, they were software people, and incorporating all that technology into music and new ways. It extended the capabilities beyond anything any of us could imagine.

CC: Then there was another development too. The soft synths came in but one of the problems I had with soft synths was memory storage. Like, where do you keep this stuff? ’Cause I would take my laptop on the road to do work while I'm on the road, but you could only carry around a certain amount but then what because developing now was smaller and smaller storage drives with larger and larger capabilities. You just showed me a small little rectangular thing that has- I don’t know how many gigabytes-

HH: That one is either like 256 or 500 gigabytes.

CC: Yeah, which is small these days.

HH: I mean that’s like half a terabyte which is – you know. I think the newer version of- we were talking about Native Instruments, Komplete. What I showed you was Komplete 8. Now there's Komplete 10, course they had Komplete 9 and I think it’s stored on a terabyte drive now. But I don't remember for sure.

CC: But now it’s possible.

HH: Yeah. I remember when a terabyte drive was a big drive. Now that thing is only a few inches high. Not even an inch high! Like half an inch high.

CC: Looks like a cigarette case.

HH: Exactly. Like a cigarette, but thinner.

CC: That’s right. The possibilities are endless. I’m inspired to go ahead and – I kind of stopped investigating synths for some years. But since we began doing the duet I played about – we played about 7 shows so far. But I remember when you first said “Well, yeah I’m going to bring a keyboard,” My head went brrrr because I thought “What am I going to do about that?” Then we talked and you said “Whatever you want to do we’ll keep it nice and free.” Like I didn’t need to bring a keyboard on our duet tour.

HH: If you didn’t want to, then no.

CC: I thought about it that night I heard you and Wayne play in Marciac and the beautiful sounds you were getting and how you integrated it with the piano which is stuff I just kind of tried a little bit. And I thought “Well, let me go there,” and I spent a little bit of time to put together sounds on my Motif and now we got two keyboards going. But now I’m inspired to get into more.

HH: Yeah! You found that it can work.

CC: It can work.

HH: Even with this very loose, in-the-moment direction that we’re going in. Without having to pre-plan a whole bunch of stuff. Half the time we don't know exactly what sounds going to come out. But we’re open enough and courageous enough to whatever happens, figure out a way to make it work.

CC: Yeah, it’s like that idea – one of the things that I thought of was, you know how Picasso and many other artists, but I don’t know if he was the first one to do this, would take found objects in a junkyard or something, he'd take some handlebars – some bicycle handlebar that were thrown away and turn them into antlers. But that’s the time that you came up and sat in with me on my solo show in Germany, I’ll never forget because you came up and we did an encore and it was fabulous, it was great but the audience wouldn’t let us go. We went out and looked at each other, we sat at the four-hands of one piano and said, “What should we do now?” And you said “Let’s just start here,” and threw your hands down on the piano and made a mash and we started there. It’s kind of a little bit of what we do on our shows.

HH: Exactly. I was just thinking about the use of the synthesizers on our shows. We determined that – oh you know what – while I’m at it I’m going to take – cause I think that might be my –

CC: Was that yours?

HH: Is that mine? No that’s yours. That is mine! I’m going to turn off my iPad Mini. I think that’s what’s making noise.

CC: It’s cool. It’s kind of like background.

HH: It was telling me I was talking too much. It was telling me to shut up and change the subject. The use of the synths in this context – we talked about not having them override the pianos so that the pianos are still the primary focus. But we can refer to the synths for color or kind of different kinds of environments that we can set up with them as a kind of a precursor to bring in the pianos in, in a lot of cases.

CC: Yeah, ’cause no matter – I found in the ’70s when I was using – I actually didn’t even have a piano on the stage for many years, I had the Rhodes and Clavinet and some other stuff, Minimoog and so forth. But still I found that because of my own orientation or choices as a musician, that the melodic or singing voice or like really basic creative voice, always tended to come back and be the piano for me. I think it looks like the same way for you, too. But then the synths and the electric keyboards can start to – I mean the Rhodes can be quite a melodic instrument for instance; so can the Minimoog. But it’s different, you can’t nearly create the nuance on the Rhodes that you can on a piano. So the Rhodes was kind of an inroad into electronic sounds and then once we get to sustain sounds, like what you were talking about, which are in the synth which are called pads or string sounds, then it really opens the palate up. But the piano still is basic melodic instrument, I think for me.

HH: For me, too.

CC: There’s another cool thing that if we get the instrument we could try it. If we get a piano, like Yamaha makes a Disklavier and Disklavier has a MIDI out of an acoustic piano. You take the MIDI out of a piano and put it into the synths and put a volume pedal on to bring it in. That’s another way to introduce the synths.

HH: Oh yeah. That’s the great thing about the Disklavier. To be able to do that is great quality.

CC: Well I had a one thought I came to on my visit to you today to see- to discuss. I thought i would be nice- something I would like to know about too about how your imagination works in this way. I don’t know how to say this and keep it from sounding silly but we’ve become kind of elders now.

HH: [Laughs] Yeah, right. We don’t have to hide from that.

CC: It makes me think of the future, the way music is going. We’ve been in and out of so much of the music making in this lifetime and so much a part of it and put so much love into and put so much creation into it and of course our closest associations are with musicians and the creative force, the creative team. So, my thought was, “Well-” occasional people ask “What's the future of jazz and what’s the future of music and what’s the future, what’s the future, what’s the future?” The simple way of looking at the future is in everyone’s mind. It’s what everyone decides to do will be the future is. There’s no magical future. It’s like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? What are you going to do?

HH: You have to create it.

CC: You have to create it. So I wanted to know what – aside from asking you some question like “What’s the future of jazz?” It’s too general. I would personally like to know, I think people would be interested in what is your offering. What’s your vision. What’s your ideal scene. What would you like to see it be. Like instead of looking at the barriers and things that we’d like to overcome, what are we going for? What would be an ideal environment? What should music and the musical environment look like?

HH: Well, let me not address that question head on, because it’s otherwise, there are certain assumptions built into the meaning of that question. I want to back up a little bit in this part of the conversation in that I want to dispel the idea that creative people are only musicians, artists, creativity belongs to human beings. Everybody is creative. So rather than look at the artist as the creative people I want to look at- I try to look at everybody as being creative. I know you would agree with that. So, my focus is not so much on- personally it’s not on music. Yes, I know because that’s how I’ve been able to relate primarily to the world is through music and that door’s been open for a long time. But I’m not opposed to opening other doors for one thing. But that would get off on a whole other track. What I’m interested in doing is not being the one who necessarily directs the future. The ideal circumstances are whatever the circumstances are, as far as I’m concerned. It’s what you do with whatever the circumstances are that would be the impetus for creation. If nothing’s going on, who’s going to bother to create? If there isn’t some turmoil or some imbalances or some disturbances let’s say, problems, situation to deal with, it would be difficult to do anything but something is really boring and lifeless.

CC: Yeah, life is full of challenges and problems and that is what life is fully about. I fully agree and understand. That is the wide broader look. It’s my look, too, that creativity is native to every individual, and that's what we want to inspire. I was personally, because of music and because of being a musician and because of being such a long time friend and admirer and- in a sense- not even a sense but a student of you and your music, I was interested to know what if you think of it. Like how you would like to see it? What could the communities be? What might it look like? What could it be? We know what it is.

HH: I don't know how specific you want it to be. The first thing that popped into my head is- first of all, the characteristics of the jazz environment are very humanistic anyway and very much involved with sharing, being nonjudgmental, noncompetitive, encouraging in many ways, emphasis on listening, focus-

CC: Creative and individuality.

HH: Individuality. Exactly. And have it being courageous enough to let everybody see your inner feelings. Let everyone see you sort of naked in a sense, in front of them, so there’s no pretense. That’s already in the jazz environment. But to spread that to other musical genres. Like classical music, for example. Which by the way- let’s go off on another tangent temporarily. The idea of reintroducing improvisation to the classical community, which I believe we jazz musicians are capable of doing that.

CC: And are doing.

HH: And are doing.

CC: And are doing.

HH: There’s a whole new generation of young classical musicians that are right for that, that want that. Already have it on their radar that future could hold that. They’re almost waiting for their input to come from us.

CC: For instance, one of the things in terms of ideal scene what I think of when you mention that, a lot of young musicians who want to spend their life, they want to make music and if they come up through an orchestral or chamber music or classical music tradition they’ll more than not, end up at a school, at a music school. So one of the things that would be nice to see, is that educators, who run music schools, have more of an open attitude about creativity and not a closed point of view and a dogmatic point of view that says “Well, you must learn this way, or these are the important things to learn. These are the sequence of what you must learn but to have this idea of, “Yes, these young musicians that are coming to the school are natively creative. They are looking to make music.” Just to reduce it to a couple of terms we use- of course they would like to learn the culture and tradition and schools of playing that come from Bach and Mozart and all the great classical musicians but there are other schools of music that are alive and almost to me, it’s another discussion, more basic than that, which is music that comes from the folks.

HH: Absolutely.

CC: It’s what's at the bottom of all of that. Jazz, so to speak-

HH: It’s a people’s music.

CC: It’s a people’s music. So that knowledge of that wide view, ideally in my mind, should be part of every effort to educate young musicians.

HH: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. That brings to mind that the importance of the arts and music, even if one is not involved in say music, for example, to become an artist. The value that young people can get out of associating with the arts and developing an understanding of the arts and music in particular, it’s just a great universal language that’s easily understood, in general, by anybody.

CC: It goes beyond language that’s for sure and national boundaries and politics. It’s just human, like you say.

HH: Right! And there’s like a whole treasury of musical examples from different cultures, different traditions that are beyond your community or your region or your country That really is the kind of fodder for what we need in order to really behold the concept of global citizenry which is what the 21st century is pointing toward.

CC: And what music and art always was. Beyond language. But do you know what made me think of an idea that keeps coming back to me now and then which would be a specific thing that people who want to contribute to the education of young musicians, young artists, one thing that could be built that probably should be part of every music school is a library, a huge library, well categorized of the arts, of music and the arts where the students- where young people can come or anybody can come and just partake, videos, books, recordings. You know? As we were coming up, we built that library ourselves. Now after all these years I have a tremendous library of LPs and CDs and videos and books on music and so forth. That would be a- ‘cause there’s the documented history anyway.

HH: Right, exactly. I was just thinking about the fact that when we were coming up they weren’t teaching music in schools. Now, music is taught and- well, although that’s a whole other issue about the defunding of music education in the schools, but it has been set up so that even elementary schools and high schools, either have or have had music education of one sort or another. There are a lot of schools on the college level that people can go to just to study music. Which we didn’t have that advantage when we came up. We had to learn from the streets. So thanks to, again, the culture of jazz, the musicians that were older than us, our mentors, freely shared their experience, their knowledge, encouraged us. I mean, who tried to discourage you? Nobody right?

CC: That’s right.

HH: I mean, they all would take their time and their energy to teach us stuff and help us to learn and find our own way and find our own individual voice and none of them were trying to teach us rules that were set in stone. These guys get back to the conversation- the part of the conversation of teachers teaching rules. I had a great opportunity to do some lectures at Harvard University.

CC: I saw some. They were great.

HH: Oh, thank you, thank you. One of the things I talked about as breaking the rules and the whole idea is that the people that we study in school are not the people that follow the rules.

CC: Right, exactly. They made rules. Well you know-

HH: They broke rules and made new ones.

CC: That’s the way of creativity. It’s to do exactly that. Every night when we play, we break rules. Then afterwards, we talk about it and we go, “Wow, if we combine that with that and we do that like that and then that happens.” And you just made a rule. You just made your own rule. And that could change the next night. So rules are only there when useful, when guiding you to do something that you already want to do creatively. But that’s for sure, the whole spirit of not having to follow something that someone else says is right in art because there’s no right way.

HH: The quickest way that a teacher can stifle the creativity of a student is to tell them that this rule and that rule are etched in stone and if you don’t do these rules, you will be wrong. Then you’ve killed their creativity right there. That’s the thing that we need to guard against. I try to tell young people anytime I’m asked about “What kind of advice can you give me?” I tell them, “It’s great to study music, but don’t think that all the rules you learn are going to be forever be rules that you have to follow.” Then I tell them that the stuff that you’re taught in school were made by people that broke the rules. The ones that follow the rules, we don’t know who they are because they never made a difference.

CC: That’s true. That’s like- I was just thinking about that car that you have. The reason is that how would someone come up with a new better machine if that creative mind didn't take at some point, some machine- some guy who’s interested in cars. started getting interested in cars, drove that car, got really interested about cars, he didn’t just say “Well this is a great car, I think I'll drive that.” He drove the car and said, “This is a great car but I bet I can make it do this or be better at that or design this aerodynamically or motorwise or this or that.” He maybe learned those subjects in physics and he studied. But he had the idea to make it better so he broke those rules and he made a better car is kind of an example outside of what I thought of. You got a pretty cool car that breaks some rules.

HH: Oh the Tesla. Elon Musk did an amazing thing building that car. And you’re right, from what I’ve read, he thought about what could make a car better. What kind of car do we need at this time in history and one of the things was we don’t need to be contributing to the destruction of the planet, which is our home that we live in. So far we haven’t been able to get away from this place into our country home on Mars or something. We’re burning this one down while we’re still in it.

CC: We haven’t worked that one out yet.

HH: So anyway that’s one of the things. The other things have to do with safety, have to do with discarding all the things that are necessary when you use oil. What’s in there is a simple motor. It’s called, for you techies out there, is an induction motor. Induction motor was created by Tesla, the scientist.

CC: He was in the early part of the 1900s?

HH: Yeah.

CC: That’s when he lived right?

HH: Yeah. He was a competitor, if you will, of Edison and those guys. Edison always beat him. Except for Alternating Current and AC and DC, direct current. ‘Cause Alternating Current was made by Tesla. Anyway, we’re getting too technical.

CC: You’ve got a real physics background.

HH: But the idea of making something better. ’Cause he was thinking about people. And that just- maybe better for himself, but I’m sure he was thinking about “What could make something better for people?” As musicians, we love to play music. I don’t actually sit at home very much and just play for myself. I don’t get much of a kick like I used to, when I was a kid, out of doing that. I actually like playing in front of people. It gives me the- it’s not just the encouragement but it gives me a purpose.

CC: Yeah! What’s the purpose of music? Actually is to give something. Exactly so. That’s an interesting subject you just tipped into. If you got the time, I got another question. Do you? I don’t want to impinge on your afternoon.

HH: No, go ahead.

CC: Because, okay. We’re talking about making things better and how you break the rules and you break your own rules and we’re talking about what works in the world of art. And you mention how, which is the same for me, the joy of making music is to give it. I love to play, perform too. I never want to stop doing that. I think that’s such a basic human nature to want to tell someone a story or communicate to someone something, to entertain them. To entertain them in some kind of way. That’ll, no matter what technology changes, that basic impulse will never alter. That’ll never change. So I want to know how- so you do performances or we’ve been doing these duet shows then you come off, how do you think about improving that?

HH: Okay, I’m glad you asked.

CC: Like day-to-day work. That kind of thing.

HH: Well, I’m glad you asked that. You mentioned the word entertainment and you left it there.

CC: Yeah.

HH: I wanted to jump in on that because, entertainment, for me, is just one aspect that can make the music or the experience valuable. There’s also the aspect of challenging the listener or disturbing the listener. You can entertain someone and they can really enjoy the experience and they go outside after it’s over and say, “I had a great time while I was in there.” And they feel good about that but they may not remember anything. Sometimes, if you disturb them or challenge them, they may want to think or ponder about what they experience. So their experience doesn’t finish when they walk out the door.

CC: There’s something that makes them want to look further.

HH: Yeah. Right. I think that’s something valuable and can be an aspect of the product of performance.

CC: Oh, without a doubt. I guess when I said the word “entertainment” I just meant all that. Because you take two different people in the audience. There’s Joe and Mary in the audience and they’re both at the same show. So Joe hears the music and he likes being in the crowd and being with his friends and its a nice musical evening and he had fun and he walked out and that’s fine. He got entertained. Then this other person, Mary, a little bit different person is looking for something already. So she’s in there, she’s saying “Wow, what was that?” And now she’s going to look a little bit further. So I think, when I say the word “entertain” I think definitely there will be certain people out there who will always look further. But I like that idea, the idea of provoking some thought or having people look outside themselves and to find something is definitely- So how do you do that?

HH: I know you wouldn’t be able to play the way you play, had you not considered that. I just wanted to-

CC: Define it for our listeners.

HH: Yeah, let them know that. I’m sorry, so your question was how-

CC: This whole concept of making something better. When breaking the rules and envisioning how you could do it better. To me it looks like it’s something, I know for me, it happens nightly when I perform. I don’t ponder that much but there is a thought process that goes on where I consider what the show was and make a decision about it. Like I think, “Well, that was great but maybe this could be that and boom and then you-”

HH: I've done the same thing.

CC: I want to know what you do with that. What’s your thought- how do you make your performances better? Or do you think about it?

HH: Well, let me answer this in a few different ways. One of them- it happened the other day when we played at Disney Hall and my wife remarked, “It might have been nice if we had played something like “Cantaloupe Island””, which you encouraged me to play anyway, but we didn’t actually play it there. I thought we were kind of running out of time and I thought about it and I thought, although we have played it a couple times on the tour, and we did play it in Santa Barbara, the last concert.

CC: It was nice, too.

HH: Yeah, it worked. And it made me realize “Yeah!” ‘Cause there’s nothing else that we’re playing that’s like that. And it’s a popular tune. It broadens the palate, which I think is valuable. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that input from someone else can make me think “Oh, maybe I can make a better show.” And I try and it and, “Oh, okay that makes sense.” The other thing is, this is a whole other part of the experience, and that is that the brain for example, like I can sit and evaluate stuff that I’m playing moment to moment from an intellectual standpoint and that’s not what I want to do. What I want to do is, for the most part, kind of get the brain out of the way.

CC: The thinking process.

HH: Right. Sometimes a little bit is in there, sometimes kind of in the periphery, on occasion it can help me to find something that I’m actually hearing. I hear something that I want to do and because of what I’ve learned, I can easily locate where that is. So that’s okay, just keeping that balance between, like keeping the brain completely out of the program and allowing it to do what it can do without interfering with the natural flow of responding- of the purity, the purity of the response. ‘Cause sometimes my fingers will want to go somewhere. That can be a momentary battle cause my brain will say, that’s not going to fit. But what I’ve been practicing on, really, is letting my finger do what it wants to do and letting it go where it wants to go. Then I have to- sometimes it’s a surprise where that is and what turns out and that can be very inspiring and can conjure up something I wouldn’t have thought of before. So that’s one of the things I kind of practice on in a way. Letting the brain loose.

CC: Right. So- because to evaluate or to analyze while you’re playing, that never seems to work. Seems to be just like a- well I don’t know, like an action. Something you decide you’re going to make some music now, but you’re not going to know everything. You’re going to do so there’s a little bit adventure you put in. A lot of adventure. In our case what we’ve been putting in a lot of adventure. We don’t know how were going to start the show. Actually I like starting the show like that.

HH: Yeah, me too.

CC: There’s a real nothingness. There’s an audience, there’s me and you, and we sit down at the piano. We don’t even plan who’s going to start. Some nights you start, some nights I start and it’s something that comes from nothing. It’s a nothingness. It’s a creation, then it starts but there’s a motion that goes on to me, what I notice, then it starts and once it starts-

HH: There’s an evolution that kind of happens.

CC: Yeah, there’s a judgment that goes on- of course it includes the body and what the fingers are doing but there’s kind of a valuation that’s going on. It’s not an analysis, it’s just you’re looking and listening and you’re going, “Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, no no.” See, it’s impossible to put into words which I'm trying to do now. “Yeah, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no.” I don’t know. It’s like a Geiger Counter trying to find- but you know when you hit on some stuff and then together as a duet, we know when we’ve hit on some stuff cause we go “Bam and wow!”

HH: Yeah, but it’s like, based off of how it feels. Like to the being, to your being rather than “Yes, no, it fits into this rule, well that chord doesn’t have that in it.” It’s not that type of fiesta. it’s based on the feeling. It’s still an unconscious-

CC: You know what Roy Haynes calls that? I just recognized. He calls that the “truth.” You know how the term is used that way. The truth. That's the truth, when you hit that thing that makes you happy because that was your original goal. You have a sense in you somehow that recognizes a level of beauty of creation or adventure or whatever and it’s the truth. Roy calls it, “That’s the truth.”

HH: I love that. But I wanted to interject here what we’re describing is not something I would have done in the early a part of my development. Because, basically, another way to explain what I do in this whole process of getting the brain out of the way is that I’m trying, in a sense, unlearn things that I had learned. The rules that I had allowed myself to, in a sense confine myself to or developed a confining- cause certain things kind of “worked,” quote unquote. To unlearn those- in other words, after years of experience, I’m at the point where I think this is the correct path for me to take. I wouldn’t encourage young people to just abandon everything that we’re describing in a sense and give up the learning of the scales and how to harmonize and all those things.

CC: Exactly. You got to learn the rules to break them. ‘Cause you won't even know you’re breaking a rule. Plus if you’re getting down to street level, if you want to get a gig, you better learn some rules.

HH: That’s right.

CC: You got to work- it’s more of a social thing. You got to work your way into the agreement of the community you're in. This particular bandleader says you got to know these tunes and I’ll hire you. So there’s a set of rules. So you learn them, but then you can always- even when you’re young, you can still be aware of the fact that I’m driving at 25 miles an hour because that’s what the rules says, I’m not going to break the rule, but I still know in my mind that I would love to be driving at 125 miles an hour, but right now, I’m not going to break this particular rule because the consequences of doing that will keep me from ever doing anything else. So there’s certain social rules and I guess there's musical rules that you learn. You have to learn how to manipulate your instrument. If you want to work with others, you may want to learn to read music, if that’s what you need. Not necessarily.

HH: I encourage it because I’m not afraid of the idea that I have heard from other people that that kind of learning will stifle you. I don’t believe that. It doesn’t stifle you. That stifling is all in your own head. If you allow something to stifle you- it’s not the learning or how to read that’s stifling you, it’s you that’s stifling you.

CC: Yeah, of course, when you follow a rule knowingly, you’re doing it but when you follow a rule out of fear, it’s not so cool.

HH: Right, exactly.

CC: Wow, Herbie. I don’t know, I don’t want to keep you longer.

HH: No, this was great.

CC: This was fun. I actually would love to have a chapter 2. We just touched the tip of the iceberg.

HH: Yeah. Chick, you and I, we get together and there’s all kinds of directions we could go in. You know, with the conversation, like we do in our music.

CC: That’s right. Well, thank you man. You’re a joy to have a friendship with for a lifetime.

HH: Many lifetimes.

CC: Many lifetimes! Not to stop and we have a whole season of gigs to look forward to. I’m inspired, man!

HH: Me too! Absolutely. It’s been a joy working with you. Thanks for this podcast. Whoever finds something they can relate to from this, I’m very happy that if any of this conversation resonates with you in some kind of way, I’m happy to hear that. If not, eh, throw it away.

CC: Okay man.

HH: Thanks, Chick.

CC: Yeah, Herbie.

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